Rirkrit Tiravanija has exhibited internationally, including shows at the Museum of Modern Art, the Whitney Biennial, the Venice Beinnale and the Museum of Contemporary Art, Chicago. His most recent exhibit was at Gavin Brown's Enterprise and required a person to live in it throughout its run. Ben Butler was one of the few who used Rirkrit's piece as a living area. Jason Pettus interviewed Butler by email for Cakewalk.

"Apartment 21 (Tomorrow Can Shut Up and Go Away)" Gavin Brown's Enterprise, 436 W. 15th, NY , NY (Chelsea) A dimensional representation of Rirkrit's East Village apartment, constructed of blank plywood, complete with a working bathroom (tub and toilet), kitchen (stove, refrigerator, sink, table), bedroom, living room, outside area.

How did you get involved with staying inside the exhibition? Are you a friend of Rirkrit? If not, how did you find out about the exhibition and why did you decide to move in?

I was housesitting for Elizabeth Peyton, who also shows at Gavin's, for the month of June. I met her when she lectured at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago where I'm a grad. student in painting. I had every intention of returning to Chicago on June 27th to teach a drawing class at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. About a week before I was to return, I received a phone message saying that the class was cancelled. I decided that if there was any way I could stay in New York longer, I would do it. It's an exciting place to be, especially for a guy who grew up in a small town in Kansas. Elizabeth had told me about the piece (also I had read about Rirkrit's related piece in Cologne, Italy) and had met Kirsty from the gallery who asked me if I knew of anyone who would like to move in. When she had asked me I said no and that I would be leaving, but with my new situation the idea seemed appealing. The rent was free, the drinks were free, and I could spend more time in NYC. I met Rirkrit only once, in mid-August at the apartment. He was in the kitchen when I came in. I said hello. He said hi. He continued looking around and I brushed my teeth at the kitchen sink, like always. We were formally introduced a few minutes later in the bar, up front, by the bartender. Jorge Pardo, who I'd met a couple weeks earlier, was there also. The three of us talked about grad. school, New York, and the Whitney Program. Both Jorge and Rirkrit had just returned from Europe (Switzerland I think) and Rirkrit was heading to Spain the next day.

Did the gallery mention why it was important to them that someone move in? Was it for conceptual reasons or purely for security/logistical ones?

When the exhibit opened, Rirkrit hired one of his Columbia students to live in the space (at least that's what I read in a couple of articles). So, it seems, that the idea was to have a reliable person living in the space, for security purposes, but also someone who could enjoy the perks of the situation and would be perceived by others in this way, thus creating an enjoyable atmosphere. Apparently I must have fit the same mold.

How long did you stay in the exhibition? Were you there 24 hours a day, or were you working/going to classes also?

I was there from June 27th-August 24th. The exhibition had already been going on for a month. I think four other people lived there before me. I heard from Elizabeth that the opening was packed and eclectic, with all generations attending--from Williamsburg art kids to Jeff Koons (maybe Lawrence Weiner was there too).

I would usually leave during the day to find air conditioning, food, and to see a movie or art galleries. Sometimes I would hang around though, just to see who visited. This often resulted in interesting conversations with artists, critics, writers, models, filmmakers, teachers, students, tour guides, and taxi drivers. Sometimes I made drawings at the kitchen table.

I was there almost every night to hang out in the bar and to keep an eye on my place and possessions. Alcohol and drugs make people crazy. Like I said, my drinks were free at Passerby and I was low on cash. Something interesting happened every night.

While living there I came across odd jobs including assisting James Angus, whose show opened Sept. 11th at Gavin's, and taking pictures for Jerry Saltz. After I had lived there for 2 weeks I talked Gavin into paying me ten dollars a day to allow me to stay until the end of the exhibition.

Ten dollars a day? How did you manage that?

When I first moved into the apartment, I had 200 dollars left over from prior work. I knew this wouldn't last long, so I called my grandparents to see if they could help. They sent me 300 dollars (thanks Grandma and Grandpa). This money got me through the first two weeks. Then I assisted James Angus making around 300 more dollars. Jerry Saltz paid me 80 dollars to take photos of the Kennedy home, in Tribeca, complete with crowd and memorial shrine. Jerry was out of town. I helped install ceiling fans in the bar for an additional thirty dollars. Sometimes people cooked me meals. Sometimes they bought me meals. There were two twenty-dollar loans from Passerby bartenders (Toby and Chase) during financial lulls. Once my mom sent me fifty dollars, plus phone cards. Even with all this, I still had to cash savings bonds worth 550 dollars. It's a good thing rent and drinks were free.

After the bar closed they locked the front door. I had my own key. I couldn't sleep until the bar closed between 2 and 4 am. Because I was up so late, I would sleep until noon. The gallery opened at 10am which meant that people could view me sleeping for approximately 2 hours every day. I was so tired that it really didn't bother me. I did have strange dreams though.

When I was there, and awake, people would usually ask if they could come in, I would motion them in, they would browse around, sometimes nervously. They would ask questions like if I was the artist, or about the graffiti. I would explain that neither I nor Rirkrit made the graffiti, but that it was done by people just like them who had left their mark while visiting. Sometimes they would add something.

Did this take some getting used to? Did you ever get to feeling like your sleeping was an active part of the exhibit itself?

On an average day, probably only six people would visit the gallery before noon. I could hear them step into the apartment onto the plywood floor (even when I was asleep). This woke me up less and less as time progressed but I was always conscious of it. I suppose that sleeping in the apartment was the closest I ever came to actually performing.

During the day the apartment was more of a gallery/tourist attraction. At night it was a place to hang out, and usually a place to party. You could buy drinks in the bar and bring them into the apartment. I would move back and forth at my own leisure.

Tell me a little bit about what it felt like to be inside the exhibition. How many people came through over the course of the show? Was it bunched up around the opening, or did people come in interspersed crowds throughout the run? How do people react walking/interacting within one of his spaces?

I think around 1100 people visited the show/my apartment while I was staying there, but I wasn't there for the first month (or all day even), so probably closer to 2500 people visited.

Tell me a little bit about some of the conversations you would have with visitors. Did any of them surprise you? (For example, a taxi driver maybe getting into a deeply philosophical conversation about the show.) Did the exhibit get people to examine conceptual ideas out loud, or was the space mostly enjoyed just for its pure physical pleasures?

I never tried to analyze the piece while I was living in it. People tried to talk to me in that way, but, honestly, it made me feel uncomfortable. I guess because I just didn't want to be that conscious of things (where I was living). So if people came at me aggressively, wanting opinions, I would become more quiet. But there were times that my own thoughts developed out of friendly conversations about growing up, relationships, tennis, New York, and Kansas (where I grew up). Mostly I liked to listen to other people tell stories--stories about their lives, never anything to do with Rirkrit or the piece. Oh yeah, I met a nice girl that I'm still seeing. Her name's Anne.

It seems to me that part of the reason for Rirkrit building such homey, interactive exhibits within the walls of galleries and museums is that he is in actuality almost a professional nomad, spending the vast majority of his time in transit around the globe, going from one exhibition to the next. After spending time in one of his exhibits, what are your thoughts on the subject?

Rirkrit's a busy guy-- his work is a lot about setting up environments for situations to occur within, not about him controlling it, so he doesn't have to be there. Travelling is healthy for everyone. I think many artists are "professional nomads"--Rirkrit has been smart enough, or lucky enough, to make this operate in an efficient manner.

It surprised me to find out that Rirkrit has such an impressive resume, including shows at MoMA, the Whitney Biennial, the Art Institute of Chicago, Chicago's Museum of Contemporary Art, and the Philadelphia Museum of Art. After spending some time actually within one of his installations, does the mainstream art world's embrace of Rirkrit surprise you or not? If not, what do you feel it is about his highly postmodern, conceptual art that museum staffs seem to love as opposed to other artists working along the same lines?

Rirkrit's good at breaking things down to their bare essentials (blank plywood). All the b.s. is cut out. This makes his work easier to discuss, and easier to build upon (graffiti). A lot of other artists like to try to look smarter than they really are. This gets in the way of their work. Rirkrit's also got some really, really good connections, and, oh yeah, he's from Thailand. They call him the "Bangkok Beuys." Global conceptualism.

Ultimately is the point of Rirkrit's work simply to experience the work and to take his conceptual ideas home with you on almost a subconscious basis? Or do you feel that the environment has been created to spark a discussion about the concepts within the exhibit itself? And do you feel that one of these two options is necessarily better than the other? Does one of these reactions mirror Rirkrit's goal more in your opinion?

I don't know.

CDs stolen=7
Estimated visitors=1111
Deaths=0
Phone #s=27
Beers=210
Birthday Parties=2
Bands=2
Meals Cooked for Me=6
Porn Shoots=1
Interviews=7(crossed out) 9
Half-Naked Cowboys=1
Tennis Matches=8
Jobs=5
Rirkrit Sighting=1

Copyright 1999, Jason Pettus. All rights reserved.